Curse

pah01 · Nov 27, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I get the feeling that a lot of people would actually pay to ban certain classes from being used in GVG. Well I would give arenanet the price of an expansion to be able to enjoy guildwars without ever having to meet a sin/derv/rit or paragon again.

As skuld said this is not going to happen.

Its wishful thinking.

-------------

I want to talk about the destruction of the current "instagib" assasin and how it should be done. If you need justification for this action you should probably go and kill yourself for being a twat.

For me there are three things that give the assasin the power of "instagib".

1. Massive advantage in terms of positioning.

This comes from shadowstepping. I would make all shadowstepping skills PVE only skills. This is the only way to start. any other fix is always doomed to being a bad fix. I never understood why arenenet think teleporting is anything other than a novelty. It was fun when it came out for about 3 weeks. After that it slowly started to piss everyone off.

2. Massive advantage in terms of "time."

This comes from the fact that all the skills on top of the ability to shadowstep use energy and are all "ready for use" at aggro range. This is in direct opposition to the warrior having all his "money skills" requiring time to build up. I think that having the most powerful of the sin skills requiring adrenaline would remove a fair part of this advantage.

3. Massive advantage in a frontloaded damage chain.

There needs to be something that discourages a sin from bringing any 4-5 skill combo to instagib from the skills themselves. I like the idea of dual attacks having the condition "lose all adrenaline" so that your money skills are now no longer charged.

If sins are to use adrenaline then their pips needs to be set at 3

This is at least only the first stage of destroying all that makes us hate the ckass. I at least think there is hope because I feel that weapon of remedy rits saved the rit from being the worst class ever. The question is, Is it eneogh to do the above three things to destroy the instagib factor of the sin?

Joe

lacasner · Nov 27, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

heres a brief idea:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriz

this will be a more complete version of my suggestion here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=31

since the narutards have invaded the other thread and killed any meaningful discussion possible, i'm gonna move my thoughts and suggestions here.

the problem with assassins have been pointed out many times: if they can't instagib, they are useless. unfortunately, the only thing they CAN do with their current implementation is instagib. since everyone agrees (or at least those with a brain agrees) that such an ability is broken, the way to fix it is to nerf assassins until they can't do it... unfortunately such a fix will destroy them completely since they can't do anything else (other than teleport, but everyone can take /A and teleport just as well).

so i've been taking a look at the lead>offhand>dual attack system, i've found a way to improve upon it. instead of a strict system where you have to press the buttons in order for it to do anything, i believe the off-hand attacks can take on additional function outside of the chain. here are a few examples of what i mean:

falling spider
5e 8r
Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, Falling Spider strikes for +15...31 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it strikes a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it does no damage, and target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds.

falling lotus strike
5e 12r
Must strike a knocked-down foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, you strike for +15...31 damage and gain 1...10 Energy. If it strike a moving foe, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack, it strikes for +1...10 damage, and you gain 0...8 Energy.

black spider strike
10e 12r
Must strike a Hexed foe to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +5...17 damage and target foe is Poisoned for 5...17 seconds. If it does not strike a Hexed foe, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a non-moving foe, it does no damage, and target foe is Poisoned for 0...8 seconds.

jungle strike
10e .5c 10r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +10...22 damage. If it hits a foe that was Crippled, it does +1...25 damage. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a moving foe with no allies nearby, it does no damage, and target foe is crippled for 5...12 seconds

temple strike
15e 20r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If this attack hits, target foe is Dazed and Blinded for 1...8 seconds, and if target foe is casting a Spell, that foe is interrupted. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a foe with no allies adjacent, it does no damage, and target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds

i've bolded the changes i have in mind. i know the descriptions now look incredibly long-winded, but what i'm trying to propose should be clear: additional functionality for off-hands, outside of combos.

the benefits of such a change should be obvious. sins will gain additional utility at no cost to their skill slots. this change will put their utility up to the same level of warriors. at the same time, the "disable all other" condition prevents sins from loading up with a huge attack chain and mash them in order.

if this is implemented, we can safely take away the sin's instagib ability without destroying them completely.

thoughts/suggestions/critiques are welcome. narutards need not to post.

EDIT: removed the "disable all other" condition on leads, offhands, and duals.

Something along these lines is what needs to happen i think

Captain Robo · Nov 27, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

There are 10 classes in the game with 8v8. 2 slots will be monks + 1 runner. With 5 available slots there are bound to be obsolete classes. This is how I look at the sin. Sins need to remain obsolete for the better of the game as whole.

Once you buff the sin to a point were its picked over other classes its extremely imba and must be tuned back again being obsolete. Nerf it to oblivion and leave it dead. Anet has better things to do with their time than fix a class that can't be used unless its imba.

I used to be a big supporter of the "All Classes Should Be Viable Camp," but the truth is; this isn't World of Warcraft. The classes do not all need to be viable, because you can just as easily roll any build you need.

Sins and Necros can fall by the wayside in terms of PVP for the sake of game balance. There's always PVE where those classes shine (well... maybe just necros), and chances are, you're going to have more fun playing those classes in PVE anyway.

xhappy feetx · Nov 27, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Yea, Necros are gone now, I don't even see an occasional corrupter, Izzy, get on it....

Vaga · Nov 27, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

I'd like to see them as a midline skirmish class, much like the ranger is now. I'm not going to list a million suggestions as to how to do this, but you could probably make them so they could be an option for both the 3rd and 4th slot in a balanced build (currently held by the ranger and mesmer). They already have some interesting ways of removing enchants they just lack some good utility so they can't really see play at the moment. I actually don't think it would be too difficult to get at least 1 viable midliner bar going for sin.

Definitely tone their damage back, they need to be able to do enough to win a skirmish but there needs to be an actual skillful fight where the best player wins not simply a knowledge of who you can instagib and who you can't. I'd also try to make the teleports with a snare bonus effect fairly expensive since they're just so strong and efficient (basically saves you 1-2 skill slots).

Quicksilver Switch-Blade · Nov 27, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Here's a brief summary.

There are 10 classes in the game with 8v8. 2 slots will be monks + 1 runner. With 5 available slots there are bound to be obsolete classes. This is how I look at the sin. Sins need to remain obsolete for the better of the game as whole.

Once you buff the sin to a point were its picked over other classes its extremely imba and must be tuned back again being obsolete. Nerf it to oblivion and leave it dead. Anet has better things to do with their time than fix a class that can't be used unless its imba.

Ummmm, if the game was incredibly stale then yes, there will be obsolete classes if there are only 8 slots and 10 classes (with teams running doubles of maybe two classes). In a diverse game, they are options, not everyone has to run the same thing, and while they are not used in every game, they are used a respectable amount and can serve a purpose in a certain strategy, hopefully thats not a complete degenerate strategy and can't be done by other classes, hard to believe, but its possible, just incredibly hard to pull off. Granted, the current version of the sin needs to be nerfed to oblivion and buried with no chance of recurring, but the whole topic of the thread is about how to fix the things that have caused the underlying problems of the Assassin and how its used/played to be respectable. Though ANet probably doesn't want to waste time on redoing a whole class (much easier to just nerf it into the ground and leave it there, and fix it in GW2), but this could also help with GW2 should they decide to keep the assassin (will hopefully not retain the things that make it bad) and how to make it good, and not completely degenerate.

Miriandel · Nov 27, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Assassins are a gank character, a type of character that has been bad for PvP in every RPG it has existed in. Gank characters are bad because their defining features are some combination of the ability to create completely one-sided fights at will, the ability to avoid fights not in their favor completely, and the ability to deny their opponents the ability to prepare for them.

Wow!
I couldn't have said it better myself!

PvPing online since 1987 (geez, 20 years already...

) what you said has always proven true.

Melody Cross · Nov 27, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

I think shadowstepping is a good mechanic that was poorly implemented. What sins in their current form are is a 321 spamfest that turns players off the class. But lets be honest here; many good players spend a lot of time 321ing on their warrior too, reserving damage skills for spikewindows...saving their diversion for the call. Its not the sins that made spike; its been in-game since inception. Its the sins that do it alone and unopposed, the sins that can zip around with impunity into your face and out of it--with equal ease--that make the class unsettling.

What I think they should have been was a midliner that jumped up front to deal some spike assist; a ranger on the other side of the curve. Solo, sins are sick due to their raw combo power. This is a flaw in the class: too much power too quick with poor cooldown and nothing else to add. Spike, wait, spike, wait. That seems all sins are good for.

As to combos themselves: this in effect severely limits what can be done to the class due to the req that a dual must follow an offhand, must follow a lead. I’d prefer that the “must have” req be removed and instead give them “ifs”, similar to the post copied from Moriz’s thread.

Choosing when to hit a certain skill is vital to great warriors and shows the difference between a good player and a bad one. Sins don’t get a choice. It’s all 1234 and sometimes 5.

Teleports: are kewl. But they’re overpowered due to the nature of assassins spike potential and—please don’t flame for me pointing this out—the core concept of cap points in hero battles. The maintained teleports are too strong for their benefit (and bugged from what I hear). But much of the conditional teleports never see play because they are so much weaker than a straight step to target.

Shadowstepping should let sins either get in or get out of hotspots. Getting in so far is easy. This is obvious by watching the class. Many sins love to tele into a hotzone and die. Its getting out that needs a buff to become attractive. Return is atm the best defense teleport (and one of the best defense skills) in the game. What about viper’s though? Death’s Retreat? Make sins a pain in the rear to hit, really annoying to try to train; that would go a long way to increasing their utility and frontlining assist. The best way I can think of to do this is to severely increase offensive teleport recycle times while buffing some of the recycle times in defense teles. If a sin builds his bar for a raw in-your-face blowup-target-or-die-trying combo, it should have a drawback of taking him forever and a day to get his skills and his teleport charged. If a sin, on the other hand, builds his bar to teleport in, cripple his opponent’s offenses and maim him, then pound him down over the course of several seconds, reaction of both players becomes more key to winning the duel.

So: The most positive balance (besides Moriz’s idea; I really do like the theory if not the way the skills themselves are adjusted) I can think for the instagib sin is to make all spike attacks force non-attack skills to increase recycle time; stance, spell, signet…everything. If maintained enchant teles are nerfed at the same time, this will hamper instagib severely without destroying sin spike. Yes; the sin caught you off-guard. Yes, he teleported into your face and comboed you, and yes, he can still instakill a poorly prepared player (that’s usually your fault, not his; it takes very little pre-prot to break a sin’s combo). But if he fails, he’s dogmeat; utterly screwed. He can’t dash away once you get back up. He can’t teleport out with recall or whatever; can’t Blinding Powder you. He’s at the mercy of his backline and—if solo—at the mercy of whatever you can throw back at him.

If midrange dagger attacks are summarily buffed to close the powergap, this makes 123 teleattacks much less attractive, but increases the desirability of pressure sins. It makes instagib sins less powerful, but does not completely destroy them from the game. It makes utility skill attacks more dominant, and raw damage in short bursts…obsolete.

At least, I’d hope it does.

GGs

twicky_kid · Nov 27, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

The entire concept and all mechanics of a sin are horrible. As long as my warrior's weapon does more base dmg than daggers wars will be frontline DPS. As long as rangers, mesmers, and elementalist offer great midline utility and ranged spike assist I will not chose a sin.

The sin has no other place in a build besides a solo ganker which in fact other classes do a better job and survive.

Its the same reason Necros are not in the meta game anymore. Life steal and shadow dmg is too powerful of a spike to make the blood line anywhere near decent. Hexes are also too powerful to allow overload. Another reason Sin hexes will not be buffed as they can be used by 2nd classes.

As far as buffing defensive shadow stepping I think is a big no no. Buffing defensive shadow steps will only lead to abuse from 2nd classes.

Some mechanics in the game work well others do not. I would not change the dagger attacks to adrenaline. If the sin survivability was increased and it could be a frontliner double attacks triggers would charge your adrenaline very quickly while not using any energy for attacks. Siphon Speed spam is bad enough as it is.

Snow Bunny · Nov 27, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

What would you like to see the assassin do?

Be erased

12

Shuuda · Nov 27, 2007, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I vote we create a new class, the Missile Commando. His most obviously-useful elite is ICBM, which launches a nuclear missile into the enemy's backline, causing 50000 fire damage, and burning and deep wound for forever.

Underpowered much? Prot spirit would own it.

subarucar · Nov 27, 2007, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Make him mes 2ndry, give him the nuclear missile skill, then fill the rest of his bar with enchant strips.

Ok that was off topic, i like the idea of toning down shadow step skills, either making them more expensive, or increasing the recharge.

Riotgear · Nov 27, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Underpowered much? Prot spirit would own it.

LOL JUST BRING [skill]Lively Was Naomei[/skill] NOOB

bungusmaximus · Nov 27, 2007, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Pretty chaotic thread lol, but as for my 2 dollarcents:
I would like sins in a role of utility characters, such as removing stances and enchantments, snaring folks and disruption. That insane damage overload thing they have going on is rather childish imho. There are some interesting skills such as wild strike, shattering assault, siphon speed, exhausting asssault and more. All those skills actually 'do' something instead of just 1234kill someone, and all require actual timing to be good. I don't mind sins bypassing some game mechanics such as blind and block, but the insane damage output that comes with it is rather problematic.

It's either huge damage, vulnerable to shutdown (warrior) or moderate damage and less vulnerable to shutdown (assassin). Mind you that since BLS got nerfed I don't see huge problems in assassin combos anymore. Only the assa-retard-casters and the shadowsteps need to die, but if you ask me what are the most interesting sin builds, it's definitely the ones that bring something to the team as a whole.

Almighty Zi · Nov 27, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

I really dislike assasins for the reasons already pointed out. If they can be altered to do something other than instagib then great, but we already have classes that do the other stuff.

Iotan · Nov 27, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

The idea posted a few posts back is the best thing I've seen to fix the assassin (other than removal). Giving skills different abilities based on when they are used in the combo gives assassins a lot more utility than they have now. Tone down the damage an assassin does but improve the sorts of things it can do. So if Horns of the Ox is used after an offhand then it functions as it does now but if used at any other time it works similar to Bull's Strike. Would be interesting to see if this would be possible in the actual game and if it would be worth bringing an assassin for.

Captain Robo · Nov 27, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Assassins clash in many respects with the Guild Wars world. Thematically, they're lone wolves in a team-based game; strategically, they have to be broken to be used.

In a format such as GvG, Assassins are bad for the game because they bypass the limitations of other classes in order to accomplish their goals. I don't believe Shadow Stepping to be the monster that other people see it as, but I will agree wholeheartedly that it removes all skill in positioning on behalf of the player.

The class as a whole suffers from clear intentions, but overall bad design.

Consider the other professions and their respective goals:

Mesmer: Dismantling the opponent's caster based defense/offense through careful interruption and shutdown skills, so that more offensive based characters can score kills.
Ranger: Interrupt crucial skills, spread conditions, abuse high mobility to offer battlefield support.
Elementalists: Aid the team with defensive or offensive support, while at the same time acting as a platform for powerful and expensive secondary profession skills.
Warriors: Pressure the enemy mid/backline to wear them down and ultimately score a kill.

So on, so forth.

Every class offers something useful to team cohesion, and multi-dimensional utility.

This is not the case with assassins. The utility of an assassin is to kill enemies. It doesn't get any more utilitarian than that. Why bother with roundabout methods of dealing with a problem? I'll just go in and gib the target. When it comes to utility, anything Assassins offer can be fulfilled by another class to much greater extent; but when it comes to killing people, no other class kills as fast, as often, or as readily, as an Assassin.

Forget snares, blinds, knockdowns, positioning, mobility, kiting; I'm just going to kill the target, and the only thing that's going to stop me is a monk.

I realize that the ultimate goal of this game is to kill your opponents as fast as possible, but of the classes solely devoted to this purpose, the Assassin is the only one that can bypass the limitations and constraints of the others (shadowsteps, idiot proof 1-2-3-4 gameplay, spike damage limited only by recharge).

The singular focus of the Assassin is its greatest weakness, because as it recieves subsequent nerfs, the Assassin becomes less and less capable of fulfilling its only purpose. People don't bring Assassins for the craptastic skills in Shadow or Deadly Arts; they bring them to score straight-up kills, without the [needless] shutdown game most teams have to play in order to punch through an enemy's defense.

Should the Assassin ever stop being good at killing things, the class will no longer see play. The developers will have realized the tremendous design fallacy of a class with a singular purpose, and will either be forced to redesign the class, or ignore the problems and do nothing.

This is why we're not going to see anything happen to Assassins. At the moment, they're still rather degenerate, but they're still closer to being balanced than they've ever been (at least, post-nightfall). The devs are not going to redesign an entire class, so they're just going to ignore it, because fixing it in any way could cause the entire house of cards, so to speak, to come tumbling down. That's a mess I believe they'd rather not clean up, or even acknowlege.

Assassins are not going anywhere.

ensoriki · Nov 27, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Im sorry Shadow steps Pve only?
Thats stupid.
Shadow steps do indeed give an advantage over positioning. Shadow steps give caster range to a melee class in a sense.
However wtf could it do other-wise?
If you hate shadow steps so much, the better solution is to make some of them Half-range.

Also the assassin has little more than Insta-gib (or its moebius DB combo).
You say you want to remove insta-gib but you say nothing else about the class.
This is one sided, and its a common fact, that narrow minds produce bad results.
If you don't like insta-gib start thinking on how you can balance the class out instead of >.> Uh...lets kill all it can do, because A-net couldn't give it proper utility skills.

Anyways, when I bought prophecies in 2005, I was bored. Got the assassin and thought it was a warrior/mesmer hybrid.
Instead it was more Warrior, with crappy mesmer traits.

I would like the assassin to really become a hybrid and have a balance of warrior and mesmer traits.

I'd like to see it on the frontline, with Half-range/full range utility skills.
Currently skills like [card]Siphon Strength[/card] kind of show what I mean.
The +33% crit rate, helps for the idea of it on the frontline, and the Damage debuff to melee shows that mesmer side and the Full range utility.
There should be more things like that, just some buffed up to a power range and dagger damage debuffed a bit so that they create a unison and a good hybrid.

If you want to flame me, send a PM >.> less problematic for the mods.

pah01 · Nov 27, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Ensoriki you havent understood that the post in which I said destroy instagib is a continuation of the first post made by me in this thread.

Once Instagib is killed Arenanet can start buffing certain skills to make the assasin runnable once more in a balanced role.

I would not be sad to not see the sin run for 6 months while arenanet "rebuild"
the sin for a better role.

Here is the main reasons why I think these things should be done.

It gets rid of Gay shit that nobody wants from the game but at the same time if arenent were to succed in "Rehabilitating" the assasin in a good way then they would have learned some things which would surely make guildwars 2 a better game. It also proves to the players that arenenet do not want a messed up game to exist.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 27, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

First step to remove the instagibbery:

If it follows a lead attack...
If it follows an offhand attack...

Chains that succeed are stronger than ones that miss an attack or two. Now the sin isn't useless for a minute after a failed attack.

Step 2 to remove instagibbery:

Add more armor/evasion skills.

Warriors have max armor.
Dervishes have 70 AL but enchantments to make up for it.
Assassins have 60 AL and WASD.

Now the assassin will be able to stay around the frontline without totally being murdered.